So on AAV there was discussion on Brexitious issues. Guy called Lionel Sachs was being anti-Corbyn and, to me, overstepped the mark. Having heard such views in social and print and broadcast media, especially in “anti-semitic” critiques, this didn’t surprise me much. However, I had to step in and absolutely not use any a/s references. Not difficult:
Anyway, Sacks expounded the idea that JC was “recruiting from the far right”, from UKIP, into the Labour Party, which is so absurd but I wanted to determine whence the idea came. I had first wondered “has he not realised this?” and also thought “is this why they are using the a/s slur”? Thus it seems they’re attempting to paint Momentum as The Black Shirts of Moseley in the 1930s. Actively looking in the wrong direction as Farage romps around totally unassailed by them.
Who pulls their strings? And why?
Chris Hemmings Lionel – “Recruiting from the hard right”!! Don’t set yourself up for ridicule. JC is fully aware that Labour support drifted away in blighted, employment poor, communities to right wing siren calls using immigrants as an easy target.
But the response has not been to woo the sirens – instead, it is to counter the misinformation put about by the Farageists and offer a collectivist, socialist, inclusive country under a Corbynite Labour Government.
I reckon that’s a bloody good offer to the long suffering never listened to folks. Me included!
Lionel Sacks Chris – are you saying there was no move from labour to UKIP, NewKIP? Most people think there was. And has JC shown any sympathy for the remainers who supported him in the snapped election? Most of us don’t think so. Why not? Because he has focused on getting people to support labour who are prepared to support Farage. … A neo-fascists.
I also was a strong JC supporter… 4 years ago.
Lots of water under the bridge, washing away support for him.
Think before ridicule.
Chris Hemmings Thinking is what I do! And it’s the Tories who have an open door to the far right – 60000 joined the Tories in the twelve months up to the crowning of Boris, adding 50% to the membership! All UKIP types, I’m sure.
You watched Carol Cadwalkadr’s TED talk on Facebook, Cambridge Analytica and the death of democracy? That’s what happened to large swathes of Labour support. Unlistened to and offered succour by racist Farage and others of his ilk. As I say, siren calls.
But the snap election didn’t, as it were, “soak up remainers”, the issues were – and still are – far wider. Corbyn has throughout this time been focussed on the real issues. Brexit was just a smokescreen thrown up to hide the damage being wrought by this worst of governments!
Lionel Sacks Call is “siren calls”, sure. We agree, JC has focused on getting Farage supporters back. Sure, very few support neo-fascists for good, analytic reasons; but what the hell kind of labour supporter supports them at all?
Most analysis shows the strategic voters mostly voted labour. I did. I would vote Labour anyway; but many of us where very focused. And to have JC turn round and, basically, tell us “thanks, now fuck off while I do my version of siren calls” will and has lost him support. His (and McCluskey’s) choice their responsibility.
I agree, without brexit, he could have even been in power now and all the better for it.
But the brexit shit show is a fact. Supported by the working class who’ll suffer more from the fallout and the disgruntled middle – who’ll suffer less.
And JC has met that fact badly.
Lionel Sacks And, Chris, I think you underestimate brexit. It’s an economic far right policy which enables them to make a bonfire if rights, regulations and protections. They used the social far right to sell it – xenophobia etc. call it “siren calls”? Or people giving into their worst sides or fear or whatever. Brexit supporters are still enabling ultra neo-liberalism, Thatcher2.0.
And JC thinks he can ride that tiger and deliver a “good brexit” (which, by the way, no-one campaigned for ) is a joke, like the allies appeasing Hitler after supporting him as a bulwark against communism…
If JC wanted to live up to his initial promises, he’d have exposed brexi for what it is and opposed it. He didn’t…
Chris Hemmings Trouble was there were, and still are, many on the left who oppose “the European Superstate” which they see the EU as. I have sympathy for such a perspective but know for certain it has to be faced up to and reformed. We’d throw out that baby with the brexit bathwater, but sufficient of the left – Tony Benn devotees, for example, hold to it for JC to ignore.
The three years have seen Brexit solidify as a project of the fascist, xenophobic right. I’d say JC has aided that process. For heavens sake, he’s been under immense internal party pressure, realigning it, nearly winning the 2017 GE, and constantly reining in the also inept Govt of TM to excellent effect. Eventually she was painted into a corner and so had nowhere else to go, other than resign. We all knew her party had by than been topped up with kippers hence, as I said, Boris “Nero” Johnson.
So now we see the final acts of this drama. Lib Dems rendered a farce, nationalists and Greens on board and Europhile Tories crumbling.
JC4PM – QED!
Chris Hemmings PS – everybody knows Europe will not reopen treaty negotiations. Everybody!
Lionel Sacks Well, quite. JC did worse than fumbled the brexi ball; he continuously passed it back to the opposition. We handed him the PV march, he passed it to the Tories. We handed him a strong position after the snapped election – he give the ToryUKIP part the whole field … The list goes on. You see that and still think he’s fit for pm? What crisis will he skrewup next?
Chris Hemmings JC plays the long game. He has nearly purged his party but the Cambridge Analytica derived Facebook and other social media delivered damage is harder to repair. We’re talking 1930s Moseley, 1960s Powell, 1970s,80s,90s,etc Murdoch all deeply reinforced by vile tailored messaging.
Yes, I so wanted him to be at the march back in the spring, I wished his join us with all my heart, as I marched with me banner down Whitehall. But I knew he couldn’t. “Not yet” I told myself.
His record is superb, we now have a genuine socialist party in Britain that can lead us forward towards radical and essential changes. There is no status quo to keep to. Staying in Europe or closely allied to it is not a conservative option as the EU and the whole world have deep changes to bring about. JC is so up for that. Me too!
Lionel Sacks He played a long game, badly and is loosing… In Search of his own private unicorn.
Sure, I blamed Cambridge analytica etc.. and other forces before that was revealed – but JC has done nothing, zero, to discredit those influences on the referendum – because he wants brexit… so Labour is filling up with people who’d vote with a neo-fascist because Facebook told them a pack of lies.
Obviously I want change, but JC told me to fuck off and off I’ve fucked. He isn’t capable of bringing the change needed.
Chris Hemmings Wow, so deeply judgemental, Lionel! I’ve only met JC once, though seen him speak several times. I feel he has honesty, humility and empathy and is a very special character. Miss out on that and, I feel, you are missing partnership in one of the most unique and rewarding opportunities this country has had.
Lionel Sacks Politicians are there to be judged, FFS – you’re not electing a boyfriend or any kind of partner
I’ll risk missing out on a cup of tea if it means holding power to account – and JC doesn’t get a free pass. No one does – that way lies dictatorship. This isn’t religion either.
Anyway, I hope you are happy together, what ever the future holds 🙂
Chris Hemmings Of course one weighs up politicians and JC is a pro, so open to the same scrutiny as all others. In fact he has far, far more and most of it using the sense in which I used the J word, the second sense here:
1 – of or concerning the use of judgement.
“judgemental decisions about the likelihood of company survival”
2 – having or displaying an overly critical point of view.”
Lionel Sacks You use “judgement” incorrectly about me. Try 1. if you read my comments as technical judgements, you will find I’m correct – or at least, have cause – in the faults I’m finding.
If you think, as you say – thet any and sll judgement are just being overly critical you are falling into the trap of following a religion, or being in a relationship or a dictatorship.
Lionel Sacks … and if you treat any criticism of JC as just 2. You are not engaging in honest discourse but just devout sophistry…
Gosh, I’d forgotten, this is an AAV post, of course a good dose of evangelical ferver is required.
Chris Hemmings Hey, I don’t want to bring religion – or even faith – into this chat. I don’t use such structures, other than green humanism…….
As I said, all politicians should be scrutinised but JC has had far deeper and frequently unjust criticism. I hold to that as objective analysis. Much of the entrenched establishment are deeply worried at the prospect of the first change in government in the UK for forty years.
Those forty years have caused all the damage we now need to repair!
Lionel Sacks … and there are many progressives in the Labour party who’d do a great job if JC would only get out the way.
And I can’t answer for the Tory media. But my criticism isn’t unjust. Obviously you can see that otherwise why start waffling about generalities…
Anyway, good luck in your faith in JC.
By this time I was asleep and did not provide a rejoinder in the morning. Did it help further my understandings? What should Sacks be filed under?
- Anti-Corbynite (Therefore not socialist!)
- Anti austerity
- Potential extinction rebel?
It seems to me that I have, here, to bring in the A/S element. How else can one explain his intransigence? LS was critical of JC throughout the discussion and seemed not to move on anything although his responses often lacked logic or evidence. Me: “JC plays the long game” LS: “JC plays the long game – badly” but provided no rationale for this denial.
I’d pointed out the lost millions of impoverished working class voters. He dismisses them – “what the hell kind of labour supporter supports them at all?” – ignoring my description of them as unlistened to and desperate, responding to false promises from Farage and Johnson, et al.
We don’t know the numbers but, if Labour are fifty or so seats down with, say, 10000 votes lost at each, that’s half a million votes and all in Labour heartlands. Tory policies have driven them into the arms of the right wing extremists. I can see that offering them a future, as well as those who’ve stayed loyal to the Labour cause, is an investment well worth Jeremy’s time.
Lionel and his southern brethren are far better placed to weather the storms ahead. He should understand this. Methinks he does, yet he moans: “JC turn round and, basically, tell us “thanks, now fuck off while I do my version of siren calls””.
Corbyn, and most of the Labour Party, actually said “Yes, we hear you. Things have been very tough – often institutionally heartless – for too long. You saw the Tory Govt of Cameron supporting staying in Europe and you hated the Cameron Government. Voting to leave came from that position but membership has truly brought many benefits. To cut off all ties would be disastrous, so we must all, instead, build a new consensus, to retain and improve the benefits but work to change aspects which are unhelpful and alienating”.
Well, OK, he hasn’t said that but that’s how I distill his utterances and the concerns he has shown. Giving a voice to the struggling, hearing their worries and seeing their grief.
So we rebuild one step at a time.
1 – VoNC in Boris Falafel.
2 – JC as interim PM to extend the leaving date and call a General Election, with referendum to follow.
3 – GE to bring such a turmoil! Tory – Brexit Faragist – Kippers fighting out over all the Leave votes, Labour being anti austerity pro amended Europe, Lib Dumbs being a laughing stock, like a slighted lover who wants her abusing partner back, despite all the damage he’s done to her, Scot Nats being very pro-Europe but anti UK, same as Plaid in Wales, with Caroline and the Greens being Momentum flag bearers in all but name, save being 100% pro Europe and not having to pander to certain trades unions!
4 – Result of GE? Well, this aint easy but
Labour – 281
Tory – 235
Lib Dumb – 45
Scot Nat – 48
Brexit – 18
Plaid – 3
Green – 2
NI – 11 (+ 7)
334 vs 264 vs 45
Would be acceptable!